Episode 48. Chasing Picasso: An Insightful Discussion with Author C. Joan Baker

00:00
When you think of crime, art theft is not usually the first thing that comes to your mind. But what if I was to tell you that art theft is a $4-6 billion industry worldwide? When a former business executive turned mystery writer becomes passionate about trying to find the missing art of one of the prolific artists of our time, she writes a fabulous

00:30
and she starts her investigative journey. Join me as I talk to author C. Joan Baker on this episode of True Crime in Authors. Welcome to True Crime in Authors podcast, where we bring two passions together. The show that gives new meaning to the old adage, truth is stranger than fiction. Here's your host, David McClam.

01:00
What's going on everybody welcome to another episode of true common authors, of course, I'm your man David McClam. Hey, if you haven't already make sure you follow us on all of our social medias one link to a link tree In the show notes would get you to every link you need to have for the show If you have been following the show or paying attention to your calendars Then you do know it is time for another author interview

01:26
And I know for a fact, I have a good one for you today. Let me tell you about who our author is. She is a former business executive turned mystery writer. Her passion is researching and writing about weird mysteries and forgotten histories. She is the author of Chasing Picasso, the true story of a daytime heist on art heel, please welcome C. Joan Baker. Hey Joan, thank you for joining me today. Hey, thank you for having me.

01:56
So for those of you who don't know what Art Hill is, Art Hill is this big sled riding hill that sits in front of the St. Louis Art Museum. So it's very well known around here when it snows in St. Louis, everybody heads to Art Hill to break an arm or a leg, flying down the icy surface and hopefully not crash into the cemented pond that's right after you hit the bottom of the hill. That's good to know because I did not know where it was.

02:26
Yeah. Well, when I wrote the book, it was definitely for a St. Louis audience. Originally who knows art Hill, but in this, everybody knows Picasso's from. So from that sense, anytime I stole in Picasso stories out there, it really does extend just the local area. So before we begin talking about your fabulous book, what else can you tell us about C. Joan Baker that we don't already know? Well, let's see. I.

02:53
I started this journey back in 2018. I had left my former job. I had reached the point that I wanted a new career. I was done being in the corporate world. I decided to do writing. I took a good six months off before I did some business consulting on the side. And when I wanted to write, sit down and write.

03:16
Nothing would come out of my hands, my mind, except for business information. And I was like, I do not want to write about marketing at this point time in my life. I've done it in my entire career. I did not want to write about the industry I was in. I did not want to write about acquisitions and mergers and organizational takeovers and all the things that have an effect on employees in a business. So I actually shelved this writing idea for

03:45
about a year and I picked up a treasure hunting book just to get my mind off riding in on something else. And I was looking for a local piece of art buried, possibly in St. Louis area, from an old book that was written in 1982 and it was by all accounts a failure, didn't sell a lot, so a lot of these treasures were never uncovered.

04:14
began researching history and that of the area. Now I've done some history research before for genealogy work that I've done in the past for my family. But I had a couple of Google word searches. I was looking for something and what popped up was the story of art. And it was more recent story, one of which I cover in the book about a piece of art stolen from a local area that ends up in Steven Spielberg's hands. And I was thinking,

04:44
art theft. That's interesting. So I went back to old newspaper archives, and I found a story of art theft since 78. And then I kept going back further. And then I laid it on. Wait, we had a Picasso stolen. I don't remember this. Now I grew up in the city of St. Louis and in the 70s. I was just a kid. So I wouldn't remember everything. And I certainly wasn't paying attention to art when I was that age. But I thought was interesting that

05:11
I never came across anything where this crime was ever solved. So I decided that my first thought was that, you know, I found a lot of interesting history about St. Louis that people did not know. There are some weird stuff here. And maybe I'll write these short story books about it. But as I dug into the art story became so fascinated that it became the story, this Picasso became the story. Because I, I started to learn about.

05:39
art thefts going back to war to not just the stuff of the subject of the monuments men, if you remember that book or if you watched the movie, was about the art that Hitler sold and stored away and that they recovered. But if you go back to when Hitler took power, he actually began stealing art from his own museums along with collectors and mainly Jewish collectors and stripping them of their art. And a lot of

06:07
But that was modern art. He hated. He hated modern art. He thought people were, he called it degenerate art. He thought those artists were of a degenerate mind. He didn't care whether they were German artists or not. If you were modern art, he didn't like you. And that was it. And so they began selling this art off in international auctions. And really, when you think about it, those art sells more, more than likely helped fund the war machine that started a few years later.

06:37
So a lot of art, modern art, that came to the United States during this period is a subject of what called, it's a red flag period. And a lot of the museums had these Providence projects that they're required to research the transactions of art between 1933 and 1945. And that's because that's the period Hitler was empowering in the time art was being stolen. And so,

07:07
the point of the transactions really is to be very upfront about where the art came from because the rules around art and the international laws regarding what happened during that period are different than typical stolen art. So I had went down this path because this painting came to the museum in 1934 and I was thinking, okay.

07:35
It came during that period. Is it possible that it was stolen art and the museum didn't know it? And if you read the story of the book and what I found out about the book, I didn't find stolen art from Hitler, but what I found was actually even more bizarre and interesting. But it gave me this whole education about art I did not know and I find fascinating. So I don't think you have to be a lover of art at all.

08:05
to have your mind blown by what this history of art and art theft and how it evolved to a criminal activity over the years. So I think if you learn about that and wanna read a good story, and I tried to tell a story, not in a history lesson, but through the demonstration of stolen art.

08:25
Because if you went to your art museum, I'm sure you'd find some fascinating back end stories, but they're usually hidden in the little placards or you got to go online to find the information. But there's some great stories, some of it more interesting than the art I feel. No, even though we know what happens when you think about mainstream crime, you never really think about art theft being in that. You shared this with me and what you shared with the audience. What is the percentage of art theft that there really is out there in mainstream crime? Well, the

08:52
Third largest criminal trade in the world is art. And it is a six to eight billion dollar a year problem. This is worldwide. And this has been going on as I learned back started in the late sixties. So by the time this Picasso was stolen in 1973, it was already going up in the third criminal largest trade. But back then,

09:18
The investigators really didn't understand what was happening with art. They were, they were, they had gone through all these theories, but they were just, they just, just didn't know where the art was going. I mean, the United States did not have a dedicated art team like, uh, you had in Italy or, uh, France, but most of the world's greatest art came out of Europe. So reasonably so that's why they're a far ahead in that world.

09:48
There was also other things going on at the same time. Art was one of the highest investments you could make in the 60s. And the post World War II, art was one of the best investments you can make in terms of your return. I mean, you could get 2000% return. And part of this had to do with this sudden demand for art that occurred after World War II. And I think this was a response into Hitler's determination to get rid of modern art.

10:17
But it was also response to what was changing in art auctions or in just auctions alone. So he had these big auctions houses that would sell art and they had sold art for a long time, but what changed in the late 50s was they made it a celebrity event and became real popular. And then all of a sudden the value of art started growing tremendously through these auctions. And part of it was psychology is what I learned and how people respond.

10:47
to bidding, but you also had these egos involved now and a lot of wealthy people involved in bidding this art. And so someone's art could be sold for a tremendous amount of money, which would in effect make the rest of their art very much worth a lot of money. Even though that artist may have sold that piece of art for hardly anything at the time, it essentially made all their other art valuable. So once it became so big,

11:15
I think criminals looked at this and said, well, wait a minute, most art is not secure, especially in Europe, you could go into a hotel where there was former artists that stayed at and left art. They would basically exchange art for maybe a meal back then. They would steal art from places that were just not secure. Even the schemes be evolved. They used to be ransom schemes or insurance schemes, and then they start changing in art.

11:46
really became this international currency. And because it became that, what I notice is that organized crime, even through Europe and then the United States, when pressure was put on organized crime, specifically groups like the mafia, there became an increase in art thefts. And it really wasn't until the late 70s that a detective out of, I think he was out of New York, he theorized that

12:15
art was likely being stolen by organized crime in order to facilitate transactions where money would normally be used and this would help hide those transactions. So when we go back to 70s, we start to look what was happening at those period. Organized crime was under a lot of pressure by the US government, but there was also a major narcotics heroin trade going on.

12:41
And so I think all of this contributed to art being the target of theft. And a lot of the art evolved very quickly to targeting a well-known artists, but lesser known pieces. Because they could be hidden. They were forgotten very quickly. They could be moved to easily to another market with even within the United States and sold to another buyer because you still also had the demand of art.

13:10
as well right so you had people or people also buying art at the same time. Answer there's really two big possible markets it was organized crime in just the open market just because you could move art to another location and sell it there was no art that database you think about communications back then there was no national news there was really nothing that would bind the cities together to talk about her that might show up in the newspaper.

13:38
But in the case of this particular Picasso, it was stolen three days after Picasso died. So really the stories of Picasso that were in the newspaper at the time were about his death and his estate and that sort of thing. And so the story of this particular art died fairly quickly. Can you tell us where, when and why the theft took place? Sure. So the theft took place on April 11th, 1973. Like I said, it was three days after Picasso died.

14:08
place at the St. Louis Art Museum, which back then was known as the City Art Museum of St. Louis. In 1970s wasn't a great time for US parks and city owned museums were taxed or they were pretty much ran by tax benefits. You had to think about there was a lot of there was just a lot of graffiti and things happening at the parks. They weren't being taken care of. Things were run down and even the museum was, museums were struggling.

14:36
This museum was particularly struggling at the time. And so over the years, the museum had changed. It was a beautiful museum built at the 1904 World's Fair to protect art that was going to be displayed at the fair. And over the years, it had a lot of alterations in terms of it got a lot of art, but it had to find new ways of displaying it. Skylights had began to deteriorate.

15:05
Museum itself wasn't in great shape. There was only in this museum, two entrances and exits at the time, even though the museum was built with more than those. They were blocked off because the museum was desperate for space to display their growing collection. So you could only enter the museum from Art Hill, or you had to go through an auditorium that was added on in the 60s through the back, which would not have been a convenient way to get to the.

15:33
Museum's lobby and art because that was really off that main entrance So what happened was somewhere between 4 and 445 someone walked out with this small Picasso The painting is about the size of a legal letter size piece of paper was painted on wood So it couldn't be rolled up. It was fastened to a partition wall There was a partition again. They made an alcove into a space art gallery space and was hanging on small

16:03
and it walked away and you know you didn't have devices alarm systems on the wall that would notify someone that someone was pulling art off the wall. All those things exist today. You can't even cross a line without a beam going off or a noise going off but back then that didn't exist and that was true for most museums and why art was such a big target. So the piece was taken and that day the cure

16:31
one of the art curators was leaving the museum. She was sick and she would cut through this area of the museum to leave on her way out. And she noticed that, wait a minute, that piece of art is missing from the wall. And normally when the museum staff would take something from the wall for repairs, they would leave a tag hanging up. And this, there was no tag. So she was a right to be concerned.

16:55
And she made necessary contacts within the museum to see if had been relocated. And meanwhile, had the security guards secure all the entrances. Now, they searched the museum for two days and didn't find it. And finally, they had to go to the police and say on Friday the 13th, someone this art's missing. Them waiting two days was not unusual. This happened also at the Met. You know, first, there's an embarrassment of an art theft. Right. Because art museums, a lot of the art.

17:24
are things they acquired through financial donations and some art is actually donated, some is on loan. So it's a scary thing for them to go out and admit that we had a piece of art stolen, because that puts everybody on edge. So that delay though, I think hurt the investigation because if it wasn't inside job, which was commonly thought that most thefts that occurred in the museum were somehow inside jobs, not all.

17:52
proved to be the truth. But if you think about the amount of security they had, it would make sense that you would think that but that means it would be two days you would the investigators would be talking to people two days after the theft, two days for people to get their story straight two days for people to you know, get their act together or whatever. So the story comes out. And at the same time, like I said, there was a lot of stories coming out about Picasso and the funeral and things like that. So it kind of got buried.

18:22
But the theories of stolen art were still the same theories they had from the 60s. Some of these theories, one was called the Dr. No theory is what they call it today, but back then it was a real theory that most art was stolen by wealthy collectors, that they hire somebody to steal the art, which turned out to be really not true. But that perception was really built on the James Bond movie, in 1962 the movie Dr. No.

18:52
And in the movie, they show a Goya painting that was stolen at the same period. And it was kind of a joke, but that joke really became a public perception of who steals art when really the everyday criminal or not the everyday criminal, but someone who at least has the ability to move art into a fencing operation or something similar to that, or is the kind of people that steal art. It's not.

19:20
What's the other one? The times crown affairs another one. I don't know if you ever seen that movie, but it's this rich guy and he's does it. Yeah, it's nothing like that. And you don't hear about art, a lot of weapons and guns being brought out in art. That's a lot of times they're very, I guess, clandestine would be the way to put it. But those criminals, it's not that they're not dangerous. They are. And you see that in these stories behind art, how dangerous these criminals can really be.

19:49
to get art. It just doesn't come through when an art theft happens maybe. So you know at the time this was not a priority for any investigator. You know if you live in a crime where you've got narcotics bombs, you've got people being murdered, you know, and you're a police officer, you don't make a lot of money anyways. You're taxed with the hand of these other things and somebody's asking you to investigate an art theft, especially if it was a personal collection of some rich guy.

20:18
They're probably didn't have a lot of sympathy for them. So I think, and a lot of times they were insured. So it was like, you know, file your insurance and whatever. In the case of a museum theft, those were usually investigated because the museums and, you know, really the art belonged to the people of St. Louis because the taxpayers would fund the museum. But still, you didn't have art teams. You read the art that was growing at a double digit rate. It was out of control.

20:47
But there was no dedicated art teams. There was one guy from the FBI in DC who was dedicated to art. Stella, but you know, he had to investigate all art across the US. So you couldn't do it without some local help. But in the sense of 1970s, the laws for property theft, all those things were really in the favor of the criminal. So I really learned that in this process.

21:16
It was just a period right for art theft and a lot of it happened. And those are once they went into the, especially if they went into the black market where they're exchanged and used as barter, they pretty much seem to stay there. I mean, you still have tens of thousands of pieces of art, they say that are still from World War II, they're in what they call the gray markets and occasionally you hear stories of, of maybe someone who passed on and they found a bunch of art in their location because it was given to them by their father was a Nazi.

21:45
you know, officer or whatever. So those stories do come about these days, but people find them in antique stores or they show up for sale again because people forgot they were stolen. What actual Picasso painting was stolen? Oh, well, that's a good question. So this Picasso painting was called A Dealing Woman.

22:07
combing or a study of a kneeling woman combing her hair. It actually had multiple names, which turned out to be another problem with this painting. It had like five names. And then the newspaper, when it was stolen, they just called it nude. Now, if you can't think of a more generic name for a painting, the nude, right? If you ever go through an art book, everybody has like, every artist back then would have 20 nudes. So it was the most nondescript name for a piece of art.

22:35
And it managed to elude even Picasso's own catalogs that he worked with a man named Christian Verso to catalog all of his pieces. And it eluded every catalog from the time they started, two years before the painting was even sold to the museum, all the way up until the 60s. It finally got in the catalog. And it was a black and white oil painting. And if you only saw it, you would think it was a drawing, because that's what it looks like. In the newspaper, I thought it was a drawing.

23:04
but it's really a black and white painting. And there's two actual drawings and a sculpture that combine with this painting for a study Picasso did. Picasso was only in his 20s, he wasn't even famous. And this is right before his Cubism period, it was the end of his rose period going into his Cubism period. And this Cubism period is when he really took off and became a well-known figure. So.

23:32
The story even behind the painting and the figure is his former lover, Fernando Olivier. And when you learn the story of the painting of the period in which he painted, and you understand Picasso was a poor man. He died a very wealthy man, but he was poor then, a struggling artist, and he painted in a rose period and he had no red in it. So the painting itself is rare in a lot of ways. And it's probably worth, I figured, if you took...

24:01
what it was growing as back then and what, and if it held true today, it would probably worth over 30 million easily. So I asked you this question after I tell you this quick story, because when I was reading your book, this came to mind. So I'm a huge WWE fan, professional wrestling. Two years ago, WWE started a show called WWE most wanted treasures. And what they're trying to do is they're trying to get back a memorabilia of

24:28
of things that some of these iconic wrestlers wore or use throughout the period because now they want them back because they're valuable. And some of the things, even though I've watched WWE now for well over 40 years, you watch these guys wrestle these things, you're like, yeah, that's not going to be worth anything down the line. The one thing, the story that sparked me thinking about your book was Bret Hart. They originally did an episode with Bret Hart. They were trying to get back his iconic jacket that he wore in his first WrestleMania. And

24:56
They always go to the wrestler first, say, do you have any leads on this? And he says, I don't know because this jacket was stolen from me at the hotel that night. He goes, I showed up with it, I wrestled in it, I changed out of it, and then the next thing I know, it's gone. So they send this team of people out to see if they can find this jacket. They actually did find it, but of course, it wasn't from the person that stole it. The story went that somebody that owned the hotel then stole the jacket.

25:22
A person got sick, needed money, so their family sold the jacket to the next person. And when you get these things, they're very rare. So they're making these outrageous deals because they do put a price tag on it. And they were willing to pay up to 60 grand for this jacket. And the guy's like, it's really important to me, but because they were going to give it back to Brett at the end of them showing it off, and that's the whole reason they wanted, they want to take it to fan events so that fans can relive it. He did relinquish that to them.

25:49
Is there a set of people like that that goes out looking for these lost and stolen paintings in the art world? I think so. I think you have people who look for, especially in flea markets and antique stores. I think you have people that have an eye for things that are worth money. There was a story recently of a woman who had recovered two dishes and she...

26:12
saw him for $8 at the store. Now she was an interior designer and she recognized the art as Picasso and she saw him on the backside. So she paid the $8, took them home and found out each one was worth $10,000. We talk about a great deal, right? So I think in the case of art, mine was I encouraged people in the book, hey, you know what, look in your attic. You know, maybe you bought a home where somebody had stolen and they put it in their attic.

26:37
You know, because you don't know, it could have been organized crime, but at the same time it could have been someone who was so overwhelmed by Picasso's death they decided to steal a piece of the master. And if that's the case, it could still be local. So I think it's a great idea to look. But really anywhere you should look because it was so unknown that the painting should have made it to the art theft database in 1979 and it did not. I don't know why, what happened. I think it was just an error. So

27:06
you could have bought it and never known how much money it was worth. You don't know if the signature Picasso has been covered up and may or may have not been, but there are definitely people go out, I think and look for stone art. Now I think if you're, if you're like me, you're just kind of interested. I was just interested in what happened to this painting and it opened me up to this fascinating world that was going on that I never knew about. And I love local history that I never knew about, but

27:34
I wouldn't recommend going out and like trying to negotiate with criminals or going undercover into the black market to find a piece of art. I mean, that's really for professionals and there are professional agents who that's exactly what they do. But I think a great adventure is the next time you go to the antique store or somewhere like that, go shopping and then and check it out because people have found great deals and it really.

28:04
A lot of people pass up because they just don't have the knowledge of whatever it is they're looking for. So I would bet there's people out there for sure. Looking. So in the rare occasion that somebody may find this say like in their attic at an art sale, what should they do if they discover that this is actually the one? Well, I, my recommendation is I'd call the wear only because you know, if you're going to try to sell something and find out that you can't.

28:33
The United States law for this would be, at least my understanding, when I was writing the book, I asked about this. And my understanding is, generally speaking, if art, you cannot pass good title on stolen art. And so even if you were a good faith purchaser, you inherited and that person had bought it and nobody had any idea of stolen, it doesn't matter. It cannot pass title. However, I have came across some cases.

29:03
in which one was with Georgia involving Georgia O'Keeffe. She had art taken from her apartment. Georgia O'Keeffe was a, you know, a artist herself and painted lilies and that. And art had been stolen from her apartment or something and she had saw it years later. She thought she knew who had it, but I don't think they went after to try to recover it until much later and the court said,

29:32
never showed any effort to go after this earlier. And so they ruled actually in favor of the person who had it and that the person didn't steal it but they they must have purchased it from someone they did. So I don't think the law might be as clear because we're talking about a case in 1973. I know and

29:50
And technically the insurance company paid the museum a reimbursed for a value amount wasn't the actual market value. That was a whole other story because they didn't update their insurance policy, but they did get the full value anyways, but they would really have the title rights insurance company would now most cases when art is stolen from a museum or any really a personal somebody in it can be recovered. Usually

30:20
the money is returned to the insurance company and the person gets their art back. So I think it's a little bit of a gray area, but I would, I would definitely call a lawyer and say, look, I found this, it's worth money and all that, you know, well, what can I do with it? Now, if you live in like Italy or France, this is surprising to me, but they have good faith purchaser loss. So if you bought under a good faith, you own it.

30:46
And in fact, in France, I think it is, if you want it back, you're going to have to pay them whatever they paid for it. Oh, wow. So yeah, it's, I thought that was a little bizarre, but, you know, I guess because they've had so much art pilfered, I don't know. It just seems like a strange law to have there. I mean, the laws are different for even if it was something stolen from World War II in that period, the law is different. Like.

31:13
There is no good faith purchaser law unless it came out of the museum or like you were complacent in the sympathetic to the Nazis or, you know, like that's why anything stolen from a German museum by the German Nazis is a legitimate transaction because they did it, their own government, you know, was their own deal. So after all this time has been 49 years with you writing this fabulous book. If you had to guess.

31:42
Where would you think the painting is? Well, I really think that it was probably fenced. We had multiple, turns out we had multiple fencing operations. And I talk about that in the book. I think it was probably fenced to another location and sold to somebody who probably didn't know it was stolen because it was so easy to do. And we have evidence of that happening. Another painting was stolen two months after a rockwell was stolen from a local gallery.

32:10
And that ended up in the hands of Steven Spielberg. And he had got it from a dealer who bought it legitimately at an auction in New Orleans. And the title had been cleared. So unfortunately, the FBI had made an error, and they still listed it as stolen. And so that led to the guy who originally owned it. It was a lawsuit. Another story I talk about in the book, because it ends up having some connections to the other art thefts.

32:38
That's why I said, when I started down this path, I never realized what a crazy story I would find all along the way. But I really think it had to do with, if not organized crime, a theft that was definitely associated with the fencing operation that moved into another market. So I think it, I think it's in somebody's possession in the United States somewhere and they don't know what they have. Which is common because, you know, just watching WB most wanted treasures. I've watched some things on art. I watched things on.

33:07
baseball cards and people sitting there going, man, this guy sold me this for like $200 and then realized they had a $40,000 card. Uh, yeah. So basically we don't know. Yeah. Well, it, you know, when you were talking earlier about, um, off the air when we were talking about the art theft, uh, there was a, uh, Netflix, uh, movie about the art that the Boston museum, the, um, garden museum, which is very interesting. And the heist itself was,

33:37
very fascinating these two guys go in disguised as Boston police officers on St. Paddy's days and basically rip the place apart for art and it's never been seen again. This heist, you know, if you just look at from a story of a heist, it's not very exciting, right? Somebody walked out during the day of this museum. But if you go, once I dove into the story and understood what was happening,

34:04
that started about this time and ended in 78, at least in St. Louis, that I was, my mind was just blown away. And one of the things that blew me away was the revelation of an FBI file. You know, when I went to look for information on stolen art, I, the FBI had really destroyed all their files about these cases. Um, so did the city. They had gotten rid of the cases and mainly because it's been 50 years. They purge them, you know, they don't need it.

34:34
But I found a file under the JFK archives, under the assassination files, and really it was a sub-archive of the Martin Luther King assassination where there was an informant file on there that had a lead into what was later called the St. Louis conspiracies to kill Martin Luther King. In 1978, there was a commission that

34:59
looked at whether or not the assassination of JFK and Martin Luther King were sole assassins or if there were conspirators. And so they were looking into this. And it just so happened that in 1978, the last art theft in the museum revealed a informant file, which involved one of the suspects in the art crime, where he had told an informant he had once been offered money to kill Martin Luther King.

35:26
And this was between 66 and 1967. And so Martin Luther King was killed in 1968. And James O'Rae was from the St. Louis metro area. I don't know if anybody knows of it. James O'Rae, of course, is the one who was prisoned for assassinating Martin Luther King. And he had pled guilty in the first three days. After three days, he tried to undo his plea, claiming that he was set up. He was a patsy, he was a, you know.

35:54
all the things that criminals like to do once they're in jail. But he was local to St. Louis and he was in the Missouri State Pen. He was there because he robbed a Kroger in St. Louis. And so when I came across the story, I was like, I have never heard of this. But it was if you went to the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tennessee, which is, by the way, blew my mind away there.

36:21
because you're literally standing, it's the Lorraine Hotel, and you're standing in front of, I mean, it still looks like as it did back then, except for the Insight Museum. But they have all the conspiracies on the wall, and they're the first one is the Samuels conspiracies, and all that came out because of the art theft. Had the art theft not happened, they would have never found this file, because this file, apparently, when the FBI agent wrote it, he misspelled the guy's name, and it was not filed with his.

36:50
the criminals normal records and so they caught it because the informant they were looking into at the time because they thought these guys were working together and that's when it came out. And so that is a whole other rabbit hole. You just when you get to it, I know you haven't got to it yet, but it'll blow your mind and I would have loved to spend more time on it, but I think it has to be a book in itself because it's the web.

37:18
It's like a spiderweb of characters in St. Louis. I never even knew St. Louis was an organized crime city when I grew up. I had no idea. Then I learned it was a fairly big one. So was Kansas City. I learned about all the corruption. I was like, no wonder why my mom was always worried about us playing in the streets.

37:43
Well, speaking of museums, I haven't gotten a chance yet. That is on my list for sure is to go to that museum down there. But I have been, I don't know if you've ever been to the museum of tolerance. I tell everybody they have to at least go once it is a Jewish museum. But when you walk in, the first thing it starts talking about is all of the hate in the world and things of that nature. The whole experience ends though, where they're actually walking you through.

38:09
the actual Holocaust. So I mean, they, they've replicated the gas chambers, even way down to how men women, they give you cards of an individual person and your goal is to figure out if that person survived or lived at the end of it. They actually do have Holocaust survivors that are still alive that come on certain days and they actually do give talks. But when you say like you were sitting in Lorraine hotel, which I've done, stood on that door it is, and there's a thing like he left it.

38:38
is almost like you are sitting in what they went through and you can fill it. And they play this movie on the wall, how it went. And by the time you're, you're out of there, if you are not a better person, or if you want to be a better adult, want to be a better person, I don't know what you went there for because that's what the whole museum is about. Now where's that located at? So I know one's located here in LA and I think that's the biggest one. Because right across the street from that one, they have,

39:08
and expose for Anne Frank, which is a whole separate experience. So if you ever get a chance to go to come down here, you should check that out. That sounds, that sounds pretty cool. I mean, not cool, cool, but I mean, cool to go see. I mean, I like, I like living history. I think there's, you know, when you're a kid in your school and you're learning history, I can't tell you how many times I slept in history class, but until you really start researching history yourself, you really start to appreciate, especially I think one.

39:37
I really start to appreciate history when I start studying my genealogy and understanding where my family came from. Because I could see their struggles and I think, God, we are so blessed what we had today. Even when we were kids and we were poor, we were not as poor as my great grandparents who came here. It was just, you start to appreciate, I think, things more in the past and you understand why history is important.

40:03
When I was a kid, I could never understand why do I got to learn this history lesson? I mean, isn't it about tomorrow? Blah, blah, blah. And now I was like, oh, my gosh, you have to know history. And I think one of the best ways to learn history, too, is to go out and visit places, you know, the places that things happened at, even though they looked every day to stand where somebody else stood in an important moment in time is fantastic. And I'd say another really good museum to go see was the World War Two Museum in New Orleans. That is a great.

40:32
museum, a great education through that museum about the war. And it's interesting. It's just far more interesting to learn history that way than reading a 10 inch book that mostly skips over the good details by the way, you know, all the things you want to learn that you really don't realize aren't usually in the history books is what I've learned now at my older age that the really, really good stuff you got to dig for. And that's the stuff that's fascinating. So if someone out there somehow.

41:01
knows any information about the missing Picasso, where can they submit that information to? Go to chasingpicasso.com. I have a lead forum on the site. They can submit it there. They can submit an announcement. If they know about the painting, have ever seen the painting or got a story to share, just submit it. I'm trying to keep up to date on what's going on.

41:25
I'm sure it's gonna take some time, I think, to spread the story outside of St. Louis and get it to other places, because it is just me working this story. But I think it's happens to be a story that you could read it 10 years from now. And I think you'd still be fascinated by all the things that the book has. So at some point in time, I would love to see somebody say that they have it. That would be great. I don't know what's going to happen for a while, but I

41:55
think that would be fantastic. That would be very satisfying. And I don't think art thefts, I guess, I don't know what goes on exactly these days and what everybody is stealing because I feel like it's a six to $8 billion trade, criminal trade every year. I mean, what are they continually going to take? I feel like everything's been offered already, but I guess not. Maybe I keep exchanging things, I suppose. I know most private collections get hit more than any.

42:25
see him anyway. So maybe that's why we don't really hear it. We only hear the end number. And that but so something you know, go home, check your addicts look for art, go to a garage sale. I mean, I say when you're out looking, you know, that doesn't hurt to look to see that signature. Casas got a distinct signature. So learn it and see if you find it he made over 100,000 pieces of art in his lifetime.

42:54
most prolific artists, but he's also the most stolen. So there's still over 1100 pieces of art of his that has been stolen. So there's big possibilities. Find a piece of Picasso out there in the market. So after writing this fabulous book, what is next and what can we expect from C. Joan Baker in the future? I tossed around a few ideas and I think the one that stands out to the most, that it-

43:22
it never left me as understanding the St. Louis conspiracy that went around in 1978. So I think we have the 50th anniversary of the hearings coming up in five years, which would be also the 60th anniversary of Martin Luther King's assassination. And I think I would like to dig further into it because I think people kind of blew off these conspiracies as something that...

43:51
very well possible, by the way, but they blew him off as something to throw out there. So it took the heat off the FBI, which could be absolutely true. However, there's a lot of connections, local connections, especially to James O'Rae, that I can't help but think that, you know, maybe there's something to it. So I think people would be interested at least hearing more about the story. There's no way we would find answers to it, I think now, but

44:21
just knowing the small connections and I don't know, I think if people knew about it, I think they would just be blown away. I mean, because there's stories you don't hear. Right. Right. So I think that's probably next. In closing, is there anything you'd like to say to any of your readers or fans that could be listening today? Sure. If you're interested in buying...

44:44
A book I you can buy pretty much for any bookstore online. You might be able to go to a local order and order from your local bookstore, but pretty much anywhere online, they're available. It's also available in ebook and my own website, which is. See, John Baker dot com and chasing Picasso on both sites. I have books for sale, signed books. So if you're interested in getting a signed book for me.

45:11
You have to order it directly from me, obviously, but any of those sites you can get the book at. And so every time somebody reads it, that's one more person that can share the story and possibly help bring the painting back to the museum. Well, Joan, it has been an enlightening conversation. I think we've come on the show. I've learned a lot about this. I am finishing up your book right now. So I encourage everybody to go out and read that. It is excellent what I've learned so far. So that's why I do this podcast to learn new things and get these

45:41
Anytime that you want to come back, you know how to get ahold of me. Let me know. We can make that happen. All right. Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. It was a great conversation. Very relaxing. Um, I love them. Have to be doing it again. And maybe next time I come back with a location of a painting, that would be great. Sounds good.

46:08
Alright everybody, that was the wonderful C. Joan Baker. You can get your own copy of Chasin' Picasso, the true story of a daytime heist on Art Hill at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and many other fine book retailers. You can also get it as part of your Kindle Unlimited subscription. And if you have that, you absolutely have no reason not to read this book because it's free to you under your $9.99 subscription rate. Also remember...

46:37
Joan does not get paid on anything you get from KU unless you are turning the pages. Downloading it is not enough, so please make sure you are reading the book. Also, if you do have any information on the missing Picasso painting, go over to chasenpicasso.com. At the bottom you will see a link for Leave a Lead. Please do so. And if you want to know more about Joan, you can go to her website, seajohnbaker.com.

47:06
She will be going back on book tours. If you want to meet her, you're in the area. That's where you can find out all that information as well as my website, truecrimeandauthors.com. All of the information will also be there. All right, guys, once again, I thank you for tuning in. You have many, many choices in True Crime and Book Podcast. I'm grateful that you tune in with me. Be safe. Always remember, always stay humble. An act of kindness can make someone's day.

47:33
A little love and compassion can go a long way. And this is the podcast where two passions becomes one. I'll catch you guys in the next one. Thank you for listening to True Crime and Authors. Don't forget to rate, comment and subscribe. Join us on social media, on Facebook at True Crime and Authors, on Twitter at Authors True, on YouTube and TikTok.

47:58
at True Crime and Authors and email at truecrimeandauthors at gmail.com. Cover art and logo designed by Dazzling underscore Ray from Fiverr. Sound mixing and editing by David McClam. Intro script by Sophie Wilde from Fiverr. And I'm the voice guy, your imaging guy from Fiverr. See you next time on True Crime and Authors.