S2 Ep 9. The Dark Side of Retail: The Lulu Lemon Murder

00:00 - Jaquie (Announcement)
The new employee transfers into your store, what you did know is that she was let go before for theft. Now you have an outstanding employee who volunteered to take a shift and she catches this new employee stealing. And what happens after that is unthinkable. Join me as I cover the case of the Lulu Lemon murder on this episode of True Crime, authors and Extraordinary People. 

00:38 - David (Host)
Welcome to True Crime Authors and Extraordinary People, the podcast where we bring two passions together. The show that gives new meaning to the old adage truth is stranger than fiction. And reminding you that there is an extraordinary person in all of us. Here is your host, david McClam. 

01:00 - Jaquie (Announcement)
What's going on everybody? Welcome to the episode of True Crime. Authors and Extraordinary People Of course I'm your man, david McClam. Hey, if you guys haven't already make sure that you are following us on all of our social media, one link to a link tree would get you every place you need to go. Pertaining to the show. 

01:20
All right, before we get started with today's case, I just want to say I do apologize. I know you guys and I get an episode last week. I'm sorry about that. Life happened and what I mean by that is we had a technical difficulty with some of our equipment and the episode did not come out quite right as it was supposed to, so unfortunately, we didn't have one last week. I do apologize. I make it a point not to miss a week, but sometimes these things in life happen and I didn't have anything on the spot that I thought was good enough to upload to you, so I would just rather wait until this week brought you this new case and then we start over. So we are here and I thank you for still being here with me during that and hopefully we don't have these issues again. I would also want to remind you guys every check out our new show extinguished, please do. 

02:17
Ladon and I have been asked to go to London in September. We will be at CrimeCon UK September 21st and 22nd. So if you are in the UK area and you're going to be there, or you're just deciding that you're going to go to CrimeCon UK, make sure to use the cold word extinguished when you check out and you would get a 10% discount. Ladon and myself will love to meet every one of you as you represent our podcast, have conversations with you, see what you like and you don't like about the show, so this will be your time to have a one-on-one with you, the listener. All right, so today's case, it's one that happened a few years ago, but I don't think everybody knows about this case and it's shocking to me because it happened to one of the biggest retail changes as far as I'm concerned, and what they sell. My wife is all over the place with this stuff. I know she has friends that likes this stuff, so we're going to go ahead and do this case for you today. 

03:26
It is on the Lulu Lemon murder. Before we begin, just give you the trigger warnings. This does deal with murder. It is brutal. If this triggers you, please make sure that you go ahead and skip this episode. I will totally understand that your mental health is the most important and, from hearing out every episode, I remind you of this. If you are feeling like you want to hurt yourself or commit suicide or you know someone who does, we need you to be here. So please go down 988 or text that number, and someone can help you immediately. There is nothing in this world no problem, no drug, no anything that is worth your life, and it is important to me. So, please, if you are one of those people, 988 is the number and you will find it also in the show notes of this episode. All right, so, with that said, here we go Now. 

04:27
This case did happen on March 11th of 2011. That's when the incident actually took place, but it was not discovered until the next day, and that's kind of where we're going to start as we tell you about this case. Now, you guys know, if you listen to me long enough, that I have what I call my dumbest criminal list, and the person that committed this murder has got to be one of the dumbest criminals. I think it even overtakes BTK for me, and you will see why I say that as we go along. So on March 12, 2011, a manager arrived in the morning to find the door unlocked, merchandise strewn across the floor and mannequins and disarray. She could hear someone moaning near the back of the store. Frightened, she asked a man outside to help her search the store. He found Jaina Murray lying in a back hallway facedown in a pool of blood with a ligature around her neck. Brittany Norwood was found in the bathroom, apparently semi-cunt is, with zip ties binding her wrist and ankles and blood on her face. Bloody footprints were tracked through the store. 

05:38
Now, if truth be told, what they're not saying here is who the young man was, that she had go through the store, because they do kind of make a big deal about this. On the episode which I'll tell you guys about, which is Murdering the 21st If you guys want to tune in after this and get more of a deep dive, our colleague Nick Edwards over at True Crime Garage was the podcast that was the feature of this one. It is episode four and it is entitled the Brutal Truth, so you can tune in over there. But on that show they do tell you and it has been confirmed the young man worked next door at the Apple Store and she saw him and said hey, can you please walk through my store? I'm kind of scared, but I think something's going on. And so he did so. 

06:23
Brittany Norwood told police that after she and Jaina Murray had closed the store the previous evening, she realized that she had forgotten her wallet and called Jaina to let her back into the store. A long record showed that the door was unlocked at 10.05 pm. Then, according to Brittany, two men wearing dark clothing and ski mask entered the store, attacked them and sexually assaulted them. While police initially treated Brittany as a victim, it soon became clear that the evidence did not support her account. 

06:59
Jaina had been savagely attacked, sustaining at least 331 wounds from at least five different weapons, including a knife and a hammer, which may have come from a toolbox in the store. Now, if you guys know anything about crime at all, anything about murder and how it's done or who commits it, 331 wounds from at least five different weapons, being a knife, is extremely personal. In the legal business they call that overkill. It doesn't take 331 stabs to kill somebody. You can do it in one if you want. But if you look at this, that says to me at least, that this murder was extremely personal. The person didn't really have any concern if they would get caught because they used over five different weapons, which included a knife and a hammer, not really concerned about people screaming, because if you're going to stab someone that many times or you're going to hit someone with a hammer or there's going to be some screaming going on and from all accounts, for what I've seen at least, the person didn't do anything to try to stop Jaina from doing that. 

08:18
So Britney's injuries were relatively minor and appeared to be consistent with self-inflicted wounds. A forensic expert at the trial testified that the blood on her face from a cut on her forehead had dripped straight down, suggesting that she had been upright most of the night, not lying on the bathroom floor where she was found. The bloody footprints in the store came from two pairs of shoes, a pair of men's size 14 Reebok sneakers, which were found inside the store in Britney's own shoe. Additionally, the tracks ended before either exit from the store. Nordin investigators find evidence that either woman had been sexually assaulted, though it was suspected that Britney Norwood had cut a hole in Jaina's pants to make it appear that she had been. Now Britney Norwood denies all of this. So if you've kind of seen where they're starting to go a little bit, just hold on because it's going to get even better and you're going to find out why I call the person who did this a dumb criminal. 

09:26
So during the investigation it emerged that an employee and manager at the Apple store next door had heard an altercation through the wall for previous evening. Surveillance footage from inside the Apple store shows them standing next to the shared wall, then walking away, while a security guard sits nearby listening to music on an iPod. Now just let's think about that for a minute. The security guard, supposed to be there to protect the premises, he or she is sitting there listening to music on an iPod. Means that King here? What's going on? I've always thought that maybe if the security guard was doing his or her job correctly, not listening to music on an iPod, maybe they would have heard what was going on inside this store and maybe things could have been stopped. But it's the Apple employees that are hearing things. 

10:23
The Apple employees testified at Brittany Norwood's trial that she heard women arguing, one saying talk to me, don't do this, talk to me, what's going on? Followed by screams, sounds of something or someone being hit or dragged in a weak voice saying God, help me, please help me. The manager testified that he thought the noise was just drama. I cannot stress this enough If anything sounds like it is not right, you gotta call somebody. And where I kind of had issues with this manager is because it wasn't that. He just said all I heard was arguing. He's telling you that he actually was hearing somebody scream for help. Talk to me, don't do this. Talk to me, what's going on? Followed by screams and sounds of something or someone being hit or dragged. Now why wouldn't you just call the police? I don't know what was going through this person's mind, but the way that he testified, he just dismissed it. He tells you right here the manager testified that he thought the noise was just drama. Sometimes drama ends up in murder. You I think everyone has the obligation that if we hear something like this on another side of the wall and we are not sure what is happening, we need to call 911 with a quickness. 

12:02
Hey, look somebody next door to my store. It doesn't sound right. I swore on her. Somebody hit in the head with something, somebody's dragged and there's a woman screaming. You will have cop cars there in a minute. But he did not do that, which I believe if he would have that night, it could have saved Jaina's life. Police also found blood in Jaina's car, which is identified at the trial as a mix of Brittany Norwood's blood and Murray's. Now let me tell you what he was actually hearing on the other side of the wall and why I say if he would have caught somebody, maybe we could have saved the life. 

12:39
Let's talk a little bit about Brittany Norwood. So Brittany Norwood, of course, was an employee of this store. According to what she had told Jaina and the rest of the crew when they came there was that she had had some issues at a previous store that she worked in and she was getting moved and transferred to this store. But, truth be told, brittany Norwood was a thief. She had been let go from the other Lulu Lemon and, for whatever reason, lulu Lemon decided to give her another chance and sent her over to the Bethesda Maryland store where Jaina Murray worked. So apparently everything was good in this store until Brittany Norwood showed up and then people started noticing things missing clothing, I think money and these things had never, ever happened beforehand. So it was believed that Jaina had caught on to her and Brittany knew it. Now they did ask the manager if they had known or suspected Brittany of doing anything and the manager said, yeah, we suspected it but we didn't have any proof of it. 

13:55
Now, if I'm all the characters we didn't go deep into it of, you know if Jaina knew and was going to tell or if Jaina said something to her, but whatever it was, it triggered Brittany Norwood. She knew the jig was up. Jaina was not going to stand for her shoplifting. So Jaina was not supposed to work that day. If I remember that correctly, she was feeling in for a friend. She was trying to make all this extra money. You know she was a good sister. She had a brother that was in the service. He was deployed. She was sending him all kinds of boxes. Her and her brother was very close. They talked all the time. So you know Jaina said whenever there were some hours to come along she would take them. So she wasn't scheduled to work that night. So she ends up working with Brittany. 

14:44
Now, from all accounts and from statements by police officials and from testimony during the trial, this is what is believed to happen. Remember, I told you that she was a thief. She had got to let go from another store to this one. Well, they believed. On the evening of the murder, brittany and Jaina checked each other's bags for unpaid merchandise. That is a routine security procedure at Luluman and other retail stores. Every retail store I've worked at that is the policy. Now in some SOPs, which is standard operating procedures, it is said that third party vendors does not or should not ever be asked to be searched. I'm considered a third party vendor, but we let them search anything they want to search, just so that they know that we, as the vendor, ain't walking out with anything, and that is a common practice. So Jaina found a pair of pants in Brittany's bag and called their manager after she left the store. The manager said she would deal with it in the morning and a few minutes later Brittany called Jaina to say she'd forgotten something and asked Jaina to return to the store and let her in. 

16:03
When Jaina arrived, brittany attacked her, moved her car, then staged a scene to the store like a robbery, putting on a pair of men's shoes to track blood across the floor, tossing mops, broom and chairs around the store and finally cutting herself and binding her own wrists and ankles with zip ties. Let's go a little bit deeper into this. This is why I do all this research, because they cut out a whole lot of stuff that you should know about just in that. So, as you heard, that was the setup. Jaina calls her manager and says hey, I've caught Brittany stealing these things. You know, we've had this problem. What do you want me to do about it? Well, brittany obviously heard this and decided, for whatever reason Now, if Jaina's already called the manager, gigs up. Right, she already told the manager that you've been stealing. You already know why. Do we want to go back and kill somebody? But that's what she decided to do. So, as Jaina was leaving the store, brittany calls. She says hey, are you still there? I think Jaina said I'm about to leave. She goes hey, I forgot something there. Can you stay at the store? And Brittany came back. 

17:19
So Brittany was on her way, I guess, to the train, whatever she catches. But her second thought was she bought herself. Let me go back. Well, in her mind, she was coming back to kill Jaina. Jaina didn't think anything of it, didn't think she would get really attacked and killed for telling the manager that she'd caused somebody stealing, when it's their practice to go through each other's bags. So Jaina opens the door and proceeds to walk with her towards the back of the store. 

17:51
It was at that point that Brittany attacked Jaina the screaming that they were hearing, with her yelling and screaming back and forth. Then there was a hit in the head with the hammer. Believe that. She hit her several other times. Then she pulled out the knife. Then she was stabbing people and 331. When it was later. We have Jaina that is in a bloody mess. Now this jumped right to that. She moved her car. Well, let's get into that Cause. This is where I say that she is world's dumbest criminal. 

18:31
So remember, earlier it said that the police have thought that the wounds that Brittany had was superficial or were self-defense wounds. The first thought pattern was okay, if these two men came in, why would they just kill one person and not kill the other? When people go to kill somebody in cold blood like that, they don't want no kind of witnesses left behind. But Brittany lives tells the police of these two guys. The police is looking all over for these two dudes. They even go to Apple next door and say hey, can we get your camera footage from last night which they give to the police and they saw two guys walking out and they went oh, is these the two guys we looking for? Now, when you see these guys with surveillance camera, I'm like that ain't them, Cause they were in no hurry, they weren't running, didn't look like they had been into anything, they were very clean. But the police couldn't rule that out, since she said there was two dudes. 

19:35
Then she was with the whole I was gonna get sexually assaulted story. The story that she kind of gave the cops was that it was I don't. I can't remember if she ever said it was a black man or a white man, but the thing that she said would make you think that it was a white guy who was racist. Because according to her, I believe that the guy called her a dirty N word and said that he had never been with one of these and so that he was getting ready to go and rape her. But as he was going to insert himself, he then says I wouldn't, ever, you with my D and he left. This is the story that she told the police. However, she had torn Jaina Murray's pants to make it look like that somebody actually had sexually assaulted her or was going to, but never elaborated on if she had been or not. I think all she pretty much said was that she had asked if the guy didn't even hurt her or whatever. 

20:41
But by this time she probably thought that she was no longer among the living. So they started looking around like, okay, well, that we got to take her at the face value. Okay, but that doesn't sound right. Then down to her wounds the stomach wounds. They were scratches. So it was almost equivalent to like say, you ate something that you were allergic to and your stomach started to itch and you just scratch because it's just so, so bad that you're trying to dig deep into that itch. Well, that's what the scratches look like she swore was done with the knife. Come on, people, we all know if somebody is going to hurt you, they're not going to be careful on how they do this. 

21:19
Then it came down to some of the dumbest statements that she made, and here they are. You heard about the moving of the car. It's not funny, but when I think about it it really is, because of what she told the police. She had told the police that she had moved the car and the police is like you moved who's car and she goes well. I moved Jena's car. This police kind of scratching the head like, wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute, how did you get out to move the car? And I think she gave some story, like the guys were looking for a way to get out. She told them that the best way to get out would be through the bag, not to go through the front. She had the key that would let them out. Now I want you guys to wrap your head around this one, that of all the kidnapping stories you don't heard. How is Brittany Norwood, the only one that ever had this opportunity? 

22:26
She tells the police that the man told her to go move the car. Let her out of the back door, watched her as she proceeded to walk to Jena's car. Get in the car, move the car, I think like somewhere up the block. Then she gets out the car, walks back into the store where these two men has just beaten up and killed your coworker. You don't know what's about to happen to you, but you just really walk back into the store. The cops is in there looking like I'm looking right now, like really, and the cops like so they just let you walk out the store. And she's like yeah, and they're like well, why did they let you walk out the store? Wasn't they afraid that you was gonna run or something? Well, no, I guess that they kind of trusted me and he was looking at me and so I think he knew I would come back, the other cops kind of like. 

23:31
Then you say you saw a cop car. Cause she said that she had saw a cop car going up the street. And because I didn't you say that you saw a police car go up the street, you didn't bother to flag them down, you didn't wave, you didn't jump, you didn't hoop and holler, you didn't run, you just proceeded to do what the two dudes in the store that has killed somebody and that's probably gonna kill you too. You're just gonna proceed to do what they told you to do and you're gonna just walk yourself back into that situation. And she was like, yeah, and the cop is like again, he's kind of dumbfounded, right, he's like but you was in the car, why wouldn't you just take off? Well, I don't know, I didn't want to leave Jaina alone. She says, in all of the purposes we believe, jaina at this point, unfortunately, is no longer among the living. 

24:23
Second, you saw a police car. So if you think that Jaina's in there dead or it's still alive, your best thing to do now is flag down that police car. These dudes are back in the store, more than three, four hundred feet away from you, you going to the car in the parking lot, they sitting there watching you. By the time you hoop out and fly down the police, the police is probably going to stop and they're either going to stay like an idiot or they're going to run. But you can start screaming hey, help, we haven't intruded or break in. Friend on the ground, hurt. They was going to try to hurt me. None of that. 

25:00
You see why I say she dumb, because anybody in that situation be like wait, you're going to let me out the back. I mean, I can think of some cases right now where people has been kept underground and they charmed the kidnapper to the point to where the kidnapper trusted them and they would leave doors open and the first moment they got they was gone. Not Brittany Norwood. She going to be the first person ever in life to go back to your kidnappers and surrender yourself and say do whatever it is you came to do. If y'all anybody believe that story. I have a bridge in France that I can sell y'all. That's why she's the dumbest criminal. You just told a story that ain't nobody going to believe. 

25:50
I said BTK was dumb because he led the police to his own self. He committed all these murders, pretty much did the perfect crimes, was off scot-free, but narcissism got to him. When I say dumb criminal, I mean because he wasn't smart. Most serial killers are smart. It means he did something dumb that caused his own self to get put in prison. In his case he just couldn't stand the fact that he was out of the spotlight and that somebody else may take the credit. And in typical serial killer, narcissistic form. Here he came In Brittany's case. 

26:28
She's dumb because she concocted a total unbelievable story that she should have known at the end was going to end where her butt getting convicted. So finally the cops get enough of this and they look her in the face and they say well, we know you killed Jaina. And she said no, no, I didn't, I really, I really was. And the cops, like we know you did. So, first of all, your story's gonna add up. Second, all of those wounds on you is defensive wounds. Didn't nobody ever touch you. Then you say you moved a car when you could have ran Brittany. Won't you just tell us the truth? Tell us what really happened? Can you just just tell us why you had to kill Jaina? We know it's you man, people that wasn't even there that day and her this story would have been like she did it. So, yeah, she did it and on January 27th of 2012, brittany Norwood was sentenced to life in prison for first degree murder. 

27:41
Now there's been some people that said that they don't think that first degree murder was appropriate, because understand that to get a first degree murder conviction, that means that there was an element of premeditation involved. Some people say it wasn't premeditated because she didn't bring her own weapons. The knife and the hammer that she used belonged to the store. Well, I slide with the other side of the people that says it indeed was premeditated because Brittany Norwood had left the store after the confrontation about theft, walked away from the store and then coerced Jaina to stay and came back with the intention of killing her. To me, that's premeditation, because she was thinking through it. You could have made the argument for second degree if this would have happened this way, if they didn't want to say hey, what is these pants doing in your bag? I got to call the manager and then at that point, without hesitation and thought she just snatched her body back of the hand and she commenced into beating there. Okay, then maybe we may have an argument for second degree, because she had no time to think of what she may do. But the moment that this confrontation happened and that did not take place and she walked up out this store and she was on her way to whatever it is she was catching to take her home, the moment that she made that phone call back to Jaina and said I'm coming back. I forgot some, please stay when Jaina's about to walk out of the door and you attack her when you get there. That's premeditation, because you thought about that, which is the reason why you called her to stay in the store and the reason why you went back to the store, because you even admitted yourself you didn't forget anything in the store. It's sad these days that we cannot go to work without worrying if our co-worker is going to kill us. Now the other question comes is is this Lulu Liman's fault? Should Lulu Liman be held responsible? I probably have a little different opinion than that. I think so. Here's why I say that she was at another store that she was caught stealing from. They fired her. Goodbye gone, see you later. 

30:09
The most businesses that is what they call a non-rehirable offense. If you have a job and they fire you, they code you one or two ways rehirable or non-rehirable. A rehirable offense might be. Well, I'm sorry, at this time we have to let you go, because you called out 22 days in a row and you was only able to call out for six of those, but you never gave us any proof of why you was gone for the other days. So we gotta let you go. But if you ever decide you want to come back six months from now, you'll be listed as Rehirable. That's a rehirable offense. A non-rehirable offense usually is we caught your hand in the tail or you were still in merchandise. We gotta let you go for theft. Unfortunately, you would never be able to work for this company again, but most companies that I've been working for at least. 

31:08
Theft is an automatic, non-rehirable theft of any kind. So if Lulu Limit would not have had her come back and not have transferred her to this Bethesda Maryland store, in my opinion Jaina Murray would still be alive right now, because she would have never been there. So the current management that was over Jaina and Brittany the manager did see, understand that they had suspicions, but they never had all the proof, therefore she couldn't fire her. Yeah, I still state that she's responsible. Here's why. What could you do, as a manager, to ensure that this is or is not going on? I have been in management positions before and I've dealt with some of this before, and this is exactly what I did. 

32:08
I noticed certain things happening when certain employees came to work whether it was theft or whether it was things like getting done so I started manipulating the schedule and what I mean by that. As I said, all right, I think it's this group of individuals and not this one. So I'm going to pick a day and I'm going to put this group of individuals with one extra person, because I wanted to be thrown off. I want them to do whatever it is that they were doing, if they were doing anything, and I'll put just them together, without additional one or two people in there that don't know what's going on. They're not going to do that, so I'm going to throw these three over here with these one or two people this week, and then I'm going to throw the people I don't think is doing anything over here this week with these one or two people and I'm going to see what happens on those days because, believe me, people, if somebody's doing something at a job that they feel like they cannot get caught or haven't been caught, they're not going to stop doing that. So when you look at the two days right there, that should tell me. But even though I had the proof, because the group that I thought was acting up was really doing what they wasn't supposed to do, I'm going to merge them all together again just to see what happens. And then I'm going to do a shift with them totally not there in the shift that I believe is not doing things. And guess what I found out? The people that I didn't believe was doing anything really was not, but the people that I thought was was. So now that I've isolated that, I let them go. 

33:47
So, in my opinion, lulu Limica did something like okay, if this is only happening when they're here, exactly what I said. Okay, brittany, you're off the next three days. Now, if nothing goes missing in the next three days, and then on that fourth day Brittany comes back to work and something's missing. You got your answer. Besides, where is the cameras in these stores? Now, I think they said that little women have cameras in the stores. Have you guys ever seen how expensive Lulu Limica stuff is? It's not like Lulu Limica stuff is like the cheapest stuff in the world. There's a couple of malls that I go to now to visit some of my stores and there's a big old Lulu Limica store in there. Why do we not have cameras? So yeah, I don't think the family did, but I think I would have saw. 

34:36
I would have fallen wrong for death against Lulu Limica because of the fact that they knew, not specifically that store, but Lulu Limica Corporation knew, all the higher ups knew what Brittany Norwood had done, and because of the fact that you did not handle that properly and this girl came across my daughter, who is doing her job to protect her job and the job of others, as well as the pocket books of customers. Because, make no mistake, people, in a retail store, the prices that we got to pay is in direct response to theft at that store. You may not believe that, but it's true. Besides the inflation and the government taxes and all of that, especially mom and pop shops. They will start raising prices based on theft, but you let her come back and now my daughter's dead. You're hell responsible. I think that she should be hell responsible. So, guys, that is the case of Lulu Limica. 

35:40
What did you guys think? Do you think, like I do, that Brittany Norwood is one of the dumbest criminals because of that story? I've never heard a story like that up until this case ever, and this is the most dumbest one I think I've ever heard. I always try to tell you guys something at the end to make you think, and here it is today Be careful what you do, what you say, how you do things. People kills people for less things. 

36:08
Now this is my whole episode about the school district. This is exactly what I said to these principals. Who still wants to try to pull my core whenever they see me? But you are playing in dangerous waters. We don't know what people's mindset is this day. Man, I don't even say anything to anybody. They cut me off anymore because I don't know if the person is going to like. Just pull up in front of my car, jump out with a gun and start shooting people. This is the state of the world, unfortunately, that we're living in right now. We can't say, man, you cut me off anymore without thinking we're going to get knocked in the head or shot. So please be careful out there. Be careful what you say, be careful who you say it to. If you mad think, is what I'm going to say to them going to set them off? And is it worth my life because I'm angry? My wife is one of the biggest people I yell at all the time for that, because she will say something to somebody in the memory you can't go doing that. Well, they cut me off. Okay, I get that, but if you look at the state of the world, we in we can't go doing that. No more People's loyal just to take us out. So please be careful. 

37:23
When it comes to Jaina Murray, may she rest in peace. My condolences to her family, of course, her brother and her parents, even though this was back in 2012,. These are things that never, ever leaves you. It's horrible enough that we lose somebody in the natural sense of the way that we're supposed to, you know, meaning that somebody just died of old age or somebody got an illness, or whatever the case is, but it hits differently. Not to minimize that, but it does hit differently when somebody is killed and taken away from you unexpectedly and before that person's time. To Brittany Norwood, you are the world's most dumbest criminal. You are exactly where you need to be locked up for life. I know that they did give you life in prison for first degree murder I don't remember because it didn't save you. You got parole or not, but if you ever do get parole, you never need to get out and I hope everybody who can shows up there and protests that. 

38:30
All right guys, once again, if you want to go a little bit deeper into this case, check out the show Murder in the 21st. It comes on Friday, but you can watch episode four right now, the Brutal Truth, which deals with this case the Lululemon Murder and our colleague once again, nick Edwards from True Crime Garage is the podcast that is featured here, so check that out. Also dealing with the same show, I know that I had told you guys before to tune in on November 10th and LaDonna Humphrey would be there to be interviewing Melissa Ponder on behalf of our podcast Extinguish. Well, last week we got the call that the network decided to move us up, so we actually aired on November 3rd, which was last Friday, and you can catch that episode now in demand. If you have not seen it, it is the fifth episode and it is entitled in plain sight. It does deal with the horrific Superbike Motorsports murders. Now the good thing is, if you want to hear the Dona Nights take after you watched this episode or before, you can go over there and you can listen to all four episodes over on Extinguish. When we will break down the case for you, you will hear the interviews that you hear on the show, because LaDonna did too. She did one with Melissa and then she did one with Charlie's sister, katie. You'll be able to hear both of those interviews in their entirety over on Extinguish. 

40:10
All right, guys, I thank you for joining me this week. I hope that you got something out of this case. Again, be careful out there. We never know who we are up against Coming at you next week. The author I have for you is the Voice for Victims of Narcissistic Abuse. She's with through it herself. She gives you grave detail on how that is and, of course, she wrote a book which is called Gasping for Air the Stranglehold of Narcissistic Abuse. She even has a narcissistic abuse quiz to show you if you are dealing with that, so you do not want to miss that episode next week. 

40:57
And then my extraordinary people. I said people because there's two. It's going to teach you about an evil crime that you, as parents, may not know exist. It's called sex distortion. My guests found out the hard way because they actually lost a child to this horrible crime, and now there are. They're doing everything they can to educate you, the parent and the child on how not to fall into these grass, and their son hasn't even been gone a year yet. 

41:31
You don't want to miss this one. They are Tim and Tamiya Woods, my extraordinary people, and when you tune in, you'll find out exactly why they are extraordinary. All right, once again, guys, thank you for tuning in. I know you have many, many, many options and true crime and interview podcasts. I am just glad that you have chosen me to be one of them. So stay safe out there, be good to yourself and to each other, and always remember, always stay humble and act of kindness can make someone's day. A little love and compassion can go a long way, and remember that there is an extraordinary person in all of us. I'll catch you, guys, on the next one. 

42:30 - David (Host)
Don't forget to rate, comment and subscribe. Join us on social media. One link to the link tree has it all. Feel free to drop us a line at truecrimeandauthors at gmailcom. Cover art and logo designed by Arslet Sound, mixing and editing by David McClam. Intro script by Sophie Wilde and David McClam. Theme music, legendary by New Alchemist. Introduction and ending credits by Jackie Voice. See you next time on True Crime. Authors and Extraordinary People.